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"Down and down and down"

Sergio Rizzo is an editor at the Italian national newspaper "Corriere della Sera." Rizzo spoke with euro|topics about the non-nation Italy, its no-good-politicians and the one thing that prevents the return of an authoritarian regime.

euro|topics: On the campaign trail Silvio Berlusconi recently promised to save the national airline "Alitalia", which the present government of Romano Prodi wants to sell to Air France – KLM. If elected, he would make some calls, and ailing Alitalia would remain in Italian hands. Berlusconi's popularity soared. I can't imagine any other country in Europe where politics are understood to work that way. Why is this possible in Italy?

Sergio Rizzo

It won't work even here. The shareholders of Alitalia weren't very happy about Berlusconi's statement. I don't think this tactical bluff will have a great influence on the upcoming election. Most Italians aren't interested in Alitalia. They have other things to worry about.

euro|topics: Like what?

The main issue in this election is taxation. Both candidates promise to lower taxes. Then comes pensions, then the terrible state of schools and universities and the poor funding for research. In reality, it is very difficult to reduce taxes in Italy. But it's a major part of the election rhetoric of both Veltroni and Berlusconi.

euro|topics:So the two candidates are more similar than they are thought to be?

Yes, and they talk and talk and talk. But I'm interested in what is possible.

euro|topics: Who is more likely to make things happen?

I would opt for Veltroni.

euro|topics: Can he really change the calcified system? Is he the "Italian Barack Obama"?
If all goes well, he might be able to change a little bit. Veltroni is not brand new to be honest. He is 52 and has been on the political stage for 35 years. On the other side is Berlusconi, who is trying to be elected prime minister for the fifth time: 1994, 1996, 2001, 2006, 2008. He is 72 years old. That is another big problem in Italy. The gerontocratic class is ruling the country.

euro|topics: Veltroni is the leading candidate of the new Democratic Party. For the first time in Italy, citizens were asked to directly elect the leader of a party. Three million did and chose Veltroni. Is this the end of clientelism?

No. Veltroni's team consists mainly of seasoned politicians, a lot of them belong to the parties which make up the present Prodi government. The average age in the current government is 59 years. This figure won't change much after the election. It's reminiscent of the central committee of the Communist Party in the Soviet Union.

euro|topics: The Soviet Union came to a sudden end. What are the prospects for Italy after April 13?

If Berlusconi wins, he will have the majority in the Chamber of Deputies, but probably not in the Senate. The current election system leads to these blockages. We have to change that. If Veltroni wins, he may control both chambers but he'll still face a very complicated situation. It is not only the political system that is awry but society as a whole. The economic, social and environmental figures are bad. The Prodi government did not prove capable of improving this situation.

euro|topics: From the European perspective Italy seems to be in perpetual crisis. The annual Censis poll showed that one third of the Italian people would, under certain conditions, opt for an authoritarian regime. How deep will Italy's crisis become?

We're fortunate to be in the European Union. Otherwise it would be much worse. I don't think we're likely to have fascism in Italy again, but we could get very close. The Italian Finance Minister Tommaso Padoa-Schioppa, who was vice president of the European Central Bank, told me a few weeks ago that the Italian situation reminds him of the Weimar Republic. I repeat: we're lucky to be in the European Union.

euro|topics: So there won't be a breakdown or an overthrow. But Veltroni doesn't seem to be the saviour that some are hoping for. How long will the crisis continue?

For the next 10 years at least, maybe even 30 years. We'll just go down and down and down. Regarding schools, employment, university, research, gross domestic product … in every area. In 1993 we had a great opportunity to completely renew our political system. But we preferred to continue with the ancient system. Mind you: Not the old system, but the ancient system. Italy is still functioning the same way it did when it was unified in the 19th century. It is the same system. There's a movie that shows how things are now: Roberto Faenza's "Il vicere", "The Viceroy", came out a few months ago. The story takes place in Sicily shortly after Garibaldi, in 1868. The politics and the politicians' language could be from today.

euro|topics: Has Italy as a nation not evolved since the 19th century?

We are not a nation. We have never been, and I don't think we'll ever be. We don't have a sense of common interest. Personal interests come first. Our politicians are primarily looking to their own good. And I don't know if Italians are any better than their politicians. I only know that the Italian people elect these politicians. If Berlusconi wins the elections, it's only because people have voted for him. They know very well who he is. They know the menu.

euro|topics: It's hard for the European public to understand the popularity of such an unscrupulous politician.

For Italians it is not. It is not new to them to have a prime minister who owns the biggest private television station. The Italians don't care. The governments of Prodi and of D'Alema and Amato didn't pass a law against such conflict of interest. They had enough time but they didn't do it. Why not? Because they don't care.

euro|topics: In your book "La Casta," you argue that Italian politicians don't care about the public. They are a caste of their own. Can you give some examples?

The most illuminating example is Clemente Mastella, the former minister of justice in the Prodi government, who has become an icon of the Italian political caste. He founded his own little party, the Popolari-UDEUR. He controls everything in Ceppaloni, the little town he comes from. He is the mayor, he controls the public utilities, he owns a little newspaper which is state-subsidised, he has a little party which gets money from the state. He won't participate in the current elections as a candidate but remain on the state's payroll as a member of government for three more years. His wife Sandra Lonardo is the president of the regional parliament in Campania. Mastella has two sons. One works in the Ministry of Economic Development, the other is the editor of the party's newspaper. His wife's sister is married to a deputy of his party. I could go on for a long time.

euro|topics: Italy spends €1.4 billion on its parliament. That's the first place in Europe, followed by France (€845 million) and Germany (€645 million).

Money is no issue for the political caste. Another example is Carlo Fatuzzo. He founded the Partito dei Pensionati, the party of retirees. He was 43 years old at the time. When he was running for the European parliament in 2004, he invested about € 18, 000 in his campaign. He got €3 million back from the state. In Italy, the parties get one euro refunded for every vote. Fatuzzo's daughter is a member of the Lombardy parliament. She takes about €10, 000 every month. The budget for party financing is double what it is in Germany: for 60 million Italians, compared to 82 million Germans.

euro|topics: What is the role of the media?

Journalists have a major responsibility here. We haven't always fulfilled our role as watchdog of the politicians. I work for a newspaper, but television is even worse. Public television is divided between the parties. In the past, the first channel was dominated by the Democrazia Cristiana, the second by the socialist party, and RAI 3 by the communist party. In private television, we have little political leeway. Channel 5 is close to Berlusconi, Canale 1 is less close, Rete Quattro is very very very very close to Berlusconi. We only have one or two useful political programmes. "Reporter" on RAI 3 is one of them.

euro|topics: Why is Italian journalism not interested in politics?

We are interested, but in a strange way: more drawn to gossip than news. We spend a lot of words on Berlusconi mocking Veltroni about his abilities as a womanizer and Veltroni spreading the rumour that Berlusconi had an affair with whoever. The funny thing is that the situation in the newsrooms is similar to the political one. Italian newspapers have had the same editors for the last 15 years. It's a gerontocracy. We have a young colleague in our office who we call a "promise" for Italian journalism. He's 40 years old.

euro|topics: It doesn't sound like the situation will change at all.

Hope dies last.

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